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 Dementor's Kiss - "Justice or Murder?" Discussion

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PostSubject: Dementor's Kiss - "Justice or Murder?" Discussion   Wed Dec 12 2007, 12:35

Now that we've approached the Unforgivable Curses what can you tell me about the Dementor's Kiss?

Do you agree with this punishment? Is it suitable? Should never be used? Is totally against one's rights? What do you think of it? Debate it! Don't ever forget to respect others opinions though!

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PostSubject: Re: Dementor's Kiss - "Justice or Murder?" Discussion   Wed Dec 12 2007, 18:23

If you ask if the dementer's kiss murder then is the death penalty muder too? If you get kissed by a dementer, your soul gets sucked out and you're good as dead. That is like the debate people have: is the death penalty muder or justice?

True, the authorities sometimes make mistakes on who they think is the real criminal so there shouldn't be a death penalty just in case ? Is that fair to the misjudged? Is that effective against the real criminals?

First of all, I think the death penalty which is like the dementer's kiss is not suitable. Why? Well because what if you accidenly kill someone innocent? Then it'll be murder to them. Also the real criminals will not be stopped by the threat of killing them.

The dementer's kiss is probably only issued to people who has done serious crime. If they are doing serious crime, will they stop because of the threat? Of course not, they will just go on to what they are doing. They won't say, "Oh no, if you kill another person again, we will get killed. Let's stop."

True it may stop other petty criminals to not start killing people but if they are desperate (for whatever reason the criminals have) they will do the crime nevertheless

So in conclusion, I think the dementerís kiss is unnecessary since it will not help the society at all.
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PostSubject: Re: Dementor's Kiss - "Justice or Murder?" Discussion   Thu Dec 13 2007, 03:01

But what about people like voldemort he would have surley been given the demtors kiss and I strongly beileve that he should have been given it.
I know that voldie is the extreme but there were people who are just as bad like Bella she was capable of pretty much anything. Don't you think that someone who was so sick that they could take another life should have theirs taken away from them? And these people are killing more than one life but lots. An eye for an eye sort of thing.
Yes they do get it wrong sometimes such as in the case of Sirius Black but in the wizarding world there are ways around it, such as vertisium(sp) they could question them under that they cannot lie not matter how hard they try.
I understand that it is quite difficult to do so but with the dementors kiss being the last restort then I think they should use that before.
It is also something more to scare people as many people know that you can break our of Azkaban and therefore they would not be as scared to go there, as Hagrid a brave man was scared of the dementors, I feel that it is used more as a threat then actually used. Although I still feel strongly that it should be used in the extreme case.
In the muggle world the death penatly was used for pretty much anything I think they should have it done in a last restort, there is no way to stop the person and after a hard investigation and questioning under vertisuim.
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PostSubject: Re: Dementor's Kiss - "Justice or Murder?" Discussion   Thu Dec 13 2007, 13:04

I am of the opinion that the Dementor's Kiss should never be used under any circumstances. Granted, I used to feel that in cases such as with Voldemort, an appropriate punishment would be to subject him to this (but leave one horcrux intact). However, upon reading Deathly Hallows, my opinion changed.

You see, most people say that Voldemort was the most evil wizard since Grindlewald. That would imply that Grindlewald was worse. While that's a scary thought, when we finally meet Grindlewald, we learn that he may finally feel remorse. If he could have been given a chance, he may have made a good wizard. However, if he had been subjected to the Kiss (and I'm somewhat amazed that he never was), he would have never even been able to feel remorse.

That brings me to another point. Presumably, one would be unable to experience emotion without their soul. What is the point of a punishment if one can't even be rehabilitated. They would simply be out of the way. That may be convenient for the wizarding community in one way, but I think that it would not really be as effective as a detterent for criminals as, say, standard imprisonment or, in cases such as Grindlewald, isolation in a prison.

To be quite truthful, while dementors typically made successful guards, I never approved of their use in Azkaban. I think that equally appropriate measures could be found that wouldn't be so cruel. The only good I saw in using them was that it kept them under control. However, as we learned in Half-Blood Prince, they are quite capable of defecting.

All in all, I think that the use of the Dementor's Kiss is just another form of evil. When we utilize something that cruel as a punishment, aren't we just as evil as the people we seek to punish?
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PostSubject: Re: Dementor's Kiss - "Justice or Murder?" Discussion   Thu Dec 13 2007, 13:52

I think that a dementors kiss is like murder. I odn't beleive in the death peanlty because it's logic is messed up. It's like teaching little kids not to hit by hitting them. It doesn make sense. The dementors kiss is the same thing. I don't think anybody ever has the right to take away someone else life and by taking their soul it basically the same thing.

I don't think that having dementors as guards is right too. Thats like emotional and mental abuse which just as wrong as killing someone. I also think that Azkaban could be successful without them. Look and Nurmenguard, it doesn't have dementors but it still is a high security prision. I think that there are other magical enchantments that you could put on some place to make sure no one will escape.

I also agree with Pamela that by using the kiss we are just as bad as the prisioners. It goes back to what I orgianlly said.

To argue what Polly said. Veritaserum can be tricked. Dumbledore said so himself. People can seal of their throats or cast spells to make it disappear.
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PostSubject: Re: Dementor's Kiss - "Justice or Murder?" Discussion   Thu Dec 13 2007, 14:01

If I may add to what you said Katie, Veritaserum seems to have an antidote. In Half-Blood Prince, Dumbledore says that Slughorn had likely started carrying an antidote to it. Also, I have a feeling, although there is no real evidence to back this up, that Veritaserum can be fought against using the same skills as are required for fighting off the imperius curse.

The death eaters did manage to keep Luna and Mr Ollivander as prisoners until Dobby was able to help. I'm sure that it wouldn't be that difficult to keep people locked up, especially if they had no wands. I think that Dementors became an easy way out for wizards.
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PostSubject: Re: Dementor's Kiss - "Justice or Murder?" Discussion   Thu Dec 13 2007, 17:24

Described as an empty shell, a life not even worth living, a Dementor's 'kiss' leaves you in a life worse than the one you left behind when you committed an atrocity worthy of this punishment. But is there really a crime that makes you eligable for such a cruel death? The term 'kiss' implies irony, in the fact that such a kiss is not one you would like to receive at all. Is there anything that can merit having your very soul sucked out so that a creature (no offense to Dementors) can enjoy your life in a way that will leave you broken inside? I don't think so, I truly would rather die than forfeit my soul to a dark creature that would have no appreciation for the memories that I have had. The death penalty is better than losing your soul, even though that on its own is quite bad enough. The only case where I can see either appropriate, and I prefer the death penalty, is in the case of sadistic, mass, or malicious murders, and even then, a life in jail should keep those people out of killing.
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PostSubject: Re: Dementor's Kiss - "Justice or Murder?" Discussion   Fri Dec 14 2007, 21:07

I do not think that the Kiss should be preformed. I mean what is the point in living if you dont have a soul. You will be lifeless and no one would want that. WHat perpose could someone in that state be to the wizarding community. I believe that it is much worse than death. If I ever had to pick between the Kiss and Death i would surly pick death in a heartbeat. It is something that should not be done.

I agree with Pamala about being rehibliated. If they were to keep thier soul there is a chance that they could be fixed in a way. You could teach them right from wrong, do whatever it takes o break them of thier old ways. If you were to just take thier soul right away where is that chance that you could give them to get better. Everyone deserve another chance.

Even people like Voldemort shouldnt even have this done to him. Im sure that he would of had rather had this done instead of dying but even so it shouldnt be used on no one. What would that solve. Almost close to nothing. I mean yes of course it will stop him from killing muggles and wizards but you didnt give him a chance. There were many things in his past that lead him the the future he had. If you were to get to know him maybe then someone could of stoped him. Also if someone was able to recongnize at an early stage what he was to become then someone could of had stepped in and stopped him.

I dont care how bad of a crime they did they still desreve a second chance. If they go back to thier old ways without trying then I might agree that death would be the best thing but not the Kiss. Like I said before what good would a person be without a soul.

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PostSubject: Re: Dementor's Kiss - "Justice or Murder?" Discussion   Sat Dec 15 2007, 02:03

Aya Kamiki just listened to most part of people's opinions, she didn't noticed not even 1 of them who agreed with the use of the curse. Aya doesn't agree it as well, and at the same time she couldn't understand why is living without a soul not worth, do people really suffer a lot when they don't have soul? If they do then yes Aya should 100% agree with the students, but what if people don't suffer? Should Aya agree the same way? Last response she heared, was from a Ravenclaw student.

stephy wrote:
I do not think that the Kiss should be preformed. I mean what is the point in living if you dont have a soul. You will be lifeless and no one would want that. WHat perpose could someone in that state be to the wizarding community. I believe that it is much worse than death. If I ever had to pick between the Kiss and Death i would surly pick death in a heartbeat. It is something that should not be done.

I agree with Pamala about being rehibliated. If they were to keep thier soul there is a chance that they could be fixed in a way. You could teach them right from wrong, do whatever it takes o break them of thier old ways. If you were to just take thier soul right away where is that chance that you could give them to get better. Everyone deserve another chance.

Even people like Voldemort shouldnt even have this done to him. Im sure that he would of had rather had this done instead of dying but even so it shouldnt be used on no one. What would that solve. Almost close to nothing. I mean yes of course it will stop him from killing muggles and wizards but you didnt give him a chance. There were many things in his past that lead him the the future he had. If you were to get to know him maybe then someone could of stoped him. Also if someone was able to recongnize at an early stage what he was to become then someone could of had stepped in and stopped him.

I dont care how bad of a crime they did they still desreve a second chance. If they go back to thier old ways without trying then I might agree that death would be the best thing but not the Kiss. Like I said before what good would a person be without a soul.

She then gave her opinion about it.

"I know this a newbie question, but do really people suffer when they don't have soul?? Of course that never happened to me not even in the old school of magic I've been before, that's why I'm asking this. If you ask me, everything I can say about this subject it's just to call it weird, of course I don't think a person would be interested in selling his/her soul to someone, but I just can't imagine that happening you know...I mean what is in fact, the feeling of being without soul?? I bet I didn't heared most part of the answers as I only came here now, but that's all I can say about this at the moment, and since I'm here now I hope I can come with more clear answers in the future."

Aya Kamiki tought twice before finishing her answer, because more things came up in hear head.

"By the way, I think that if really makes a person without soul hoping for death because of the pain, then of course it should never be used by no one, and I think the person who uses it is a serious candidate to go to Azkaban and to stay there for years, of course this is not the worst of the crimes, but it is a crime, and people should be punished when they are ruining life of someone else, otherwise that person will stay in Hogwarts for what? To ruin life of the others?? That's too stupid you know, and I bet you'll never have friends again in your life if you do that to someone. I mean, why do many people should wish suffering to other person, why? It doesn't cost anyone to be nice, does it? Then why do some people should wish suffering why? That's another one of my questions. And if you wanna know, if people really suffer from being without soul, then I have to say I agree with the last answer, which was made by a Ravenclaw girl..."

She made a pause and then.

...sorry, I don't know your name, that's why I called you by "Ravenclaw girl", but you can just tell me your name so that I don't repeat that again.

She finished and waited for someone's answer or for the professor's answer.
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PostSubject: Re: Dementor's Kiss - "Justice or Murder?" Discussion   Sat Dec 15 2007, 11:59

I don't think that people suffer when they get the kiss, howeverI think that its a way to get out of the guilt that hopefully surrounds you when you kill someone. It's like a way to escape the mortal agony that killing someone brings.

Quote :
otherwise that person will stay in Hogwarts for what?

I just wanted to say that hopefully none of these people are at Hogwarts... I seriously doubt a child or young adult would so such an unthinkable act.
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PostSubject: Re: Dementor's Kiss - "Justice or Murder?" Discussion   Sat Dec 15 2007, 16:03

Quote :
I just wanted to say that hopefully none of these people are at Hogwarts... I seriously doubt a child or young adult would so such an unthinkable act.

I can think of at least one person who would have done so who stayed 7 years at Hogwarts. Granted he was there decades ago, but the point is there was one child who wouldn't have hesitated to do that.

I think that the act of having your soul removed is the thing that causes the suffering. However, once that initial torture is over, you're left with an easy way out of feeling any pain. Therefore, I think it's a highly ineffective punishment, in the long run.
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PostSubject: Re: Dementor's Kiss - "Justice or Murder?" Discussion   Sun Dec 16 2007, 04:31

Quote :
I can think of at least one person who would have done so who stayed 7 years at Hogwarts. Granted he was there decades ago, but the point is there was one child who wouldn't have hesitated to do that.

I think that the act of having your soul removed is the thing that causes the suffering. However, once that initial torture is over, you're left with an easy way out of feeling any pain. Therefore, I think it's a highly ineffective punishment, in the long run.

Studying last answer from a Gryffindor person, she quoted herself:

"Then if the person suffers meanwhile the soul is leaving him/her, this means it's almost like death right? So you suffer in the beginning, and in the end you exist but you're like a dog without having control of yourself, right? Well I dont know if it is like that but I just imagined that it could be, especially after your answer, Pamela."

"Professor, just one more question. I don't know if it's about this subject, I don't think so but I really want to know. - she looked at the professor and made the queston she wanted to do. - Why are Dementors so interested in taking happiness of a person?And thinking twice the same question can go to those people who takes souls, why are they so interested in that, why?"
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PostSubject: Re: Dementor's Kiss - "Justice or Murder?" Discussion   Tue Dec 18 2007, 10:21

I believe the Dementor's kiss is neither justice nor murder. It doesn't fulfill the purpose that a life sentence in prison would, nor does it fulfill the purpose of removing the accused person from existence. It simply feeds a Dark creature's hunger, while saddling the Ministry with people who are not dead, yet not alive...people without souls. Their bodies are empty shells, and can never be restored...so what is the purpose of keeping them alive? Yet the authorities might feel guilty killing someone who is so removed from life, once they have been kissed.

Allow me to explain. If someone was shackled away in prison for the rest of his days, he would have decades, probably scores of years, to consider and reflect on what he had done. He or she might feel guilt, and that would make him or her hurt at least slightly, as payback for the people he/she had hurt. Or if he/she was mad, they would have nobody but themselves to face, their madness destroying them from the inside out as they retreated further and further into their own minds, until they wasted away.

Now imagine that a criminal killed someone, and so he received the death penalty. Eye for an eye. Everyone would be reassured that he was no longer in existence, and could never escape jail and kill again. The family of the victim would feel vindicated. But the criminal would no longer be suffering. Unless, of course, one believes in Hell...then the criminal would be suffering, indeed. But that is not for us to know...

I personally would rather someone waste away in jail. I prefer psychological torture to bodily torture, if someone deserves it enough. But each individual case is different, and I would never want to be the one who had to make the choice.

Justice can be defined as administering a punishment or reward that is deserved. But it can also be defined as moral conduct regarding the upholding of a law. The dementor's kiss can in no way represent morality. It is the easy way to deal with difficult criminals, and Dumbledore was right in thinking that wizards should have no dealings with Dementors. Because there is no easy way to deal with criminals. Difficulties should not be shoved under the rug, to deal with another day. Yes, the choice between death and jail forever is a hard one...but choosing in between--life, but no soul--is the coward's way out of a sensitive issue. How can one be justified in condemning the soul to an eternity of which it can never escape?

The definition of murder is 'to kill'. The definition of 'kill' is to take away life, or extinguish life. Loosely interpreted, the dementor's kiss might be construed as murder. However, remember that the heart still beats. The brain still performs basic function. A person after the Dementor's kiss is equivalent, in my opinion, to a person who is in an irreversible coma, or a person who is severely brain-damaged. They can be kept alive with machines--in the case of wizards, magic--but they will never do anything of their own volition again. They will never again enjoy life...taste, smell, sight, touch, will all be lost to them, existing only as casual reminders that they are alive. If taste has no MEANING, if a person does not love nor hate the taste of something, then can it be said that he is truly tasting? And so on with smell, sight, sound, touch, and everything else that makes up the individual people and nature in this world...and so the entire world is lost to them.

-----

To further back up my opinions, let us investigate the meaning of souls.

Ah, the spiritual part of humans. The existence of which is much-debated by non-religious groups, though I think most religions (except Hinduism, I am told) believe in some version of souls. This entity is believed to represent all that is not tangible in life--the things we cannot touch, the things one can only feel, think and desire. The soul is believed to be the life of the person, making the choices for the body, which is merely a vessel. The soul is what differentiates people from animals. Animals have only a basic soul, and operate on instinct. People, with the more complex souls, operate on choice.

Now, the soul is immortal. The soul is what travels on to the afterlife, for those who believe that it exists. And most people who believe in souls believe in some form of afterlife... So for a soul to be trapped forever in the nothingness that is a dementor's insides...I cannot tell whether or not it is worse than hell, because I don't know. But there can be return from hell. There can be reincarnation or repentance. A dementor's insides however, are forever. There is no return. Not even a speculation at a return. The soul is just...gone.

I am not sure if Dementors supposedly kill souls when they suck them in...I believe they keep them inside, feeding off the life in them until only a spark is left, not enough to feed the Dementor, but yet enough to remain alive. The soul is alive and in pain forever, with no chance of escape. Remember, SOULS FEEL. Souls are the embodiment of feeling. Yes, they can be in pain. When you are in pain, it is your SOUL which is feeling the pain. Your brain is telling your nerves to tell your soul to feel the pain.

-----

And so what to do with a person whose soul has been removed? They are as good as dead, and may as well be killed. Yet, the body once housed the soul. How can one be casual about killing that which once housed something so infinitely unique?

Better to kill the person completely, sending the soul on to the afterlife and the retributions it will face there, or keep the person alive for their natural lifespan, suffering with their guilt or madness. But do away with the Dementors. Lock them up and throw away the key!

Sources: dictionary.com, thesaurus.com, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soul, my bottomless brain.
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PostSubject: Re: Dementor's Kiss - "Justice or Murder?" Discussion   Tue Dec 18 2007, 14:35

streams of silver wrote:
I believe the Dementor's kiss is neither justice nor murder. It doesn't fulfill the purpose that a life sentence in prison would, nor does it fulfill the purpose of removing the accused person from existence. It simply feeds a Dark creature's hunger, while saddling the Ministry with people who are not dead, yet not alive...people without souls. Their bodies are empty shells, and can never be restored...so what is the purpose of keeping them alive? Yet the authorities might feel guilty killing someone who is so removed from life, once they have been kissed.

Allow me to explain. If someone was shackled away in prison for the rest of his days, he would have decades, probably scores of years, to consider and reflect on what he had done. He or she might feel guilt, and that would make him or her hurt at least slightly, as payback for the people he/she had hurt. Or if he/she was mad, they would have nobody but themselves to face, their madness destroying them from the inside out as they retreated further and further into their own minds, until they wasted away.

Now imagine that a criminal killed someone, and so he received the death penalty. Eye for an eye. Everyone would be reassured that he was no longer in existence, and could never escape jail and kill again. The family of the victim would feel vindicated. But the criminal would no longer be suffering. Unless, of course, one believes in Hell...then the criminal would be suffering, indeed. But that is not for us to know...

I personally would rather someone waste away in jail. I prefer psychological torture to bodily torture, if someone deserves it enough. But each individual case is different, and I would never want to be the one who had to make the choice.

Justice can be defined as administering a punishment or reward that is deserved. But it can also be defined as moral conduct regarding the upholding of a law. The dementor's kiss can in no way represent morality. It is the easy way to deal with difficult criminals, and Dumbledore was right in thinking that wizards should have no dealings with Dementors. Because there is no easy way to deal with criminals. Difficulties should not be shoved under the rug, to deal with another day. Yes, the choice between death and jail forever is a hard one...but choosing in between--life, but no soul--is the coward's way out of a sensitive issue. How can one be justified in condemning the soul to an eternity of which it can never escape?

The definition of murder is 'to kill'. The definition of 'kill' is to take away life, or extinguish life. Loosely interpreted, the dementor's kiss might be construed as murder. However, remember that the heart still beats. The brain still performs basic function. A person after the Dementor's kiss is equivalent, in my opinion, to a person who is in an irreversible coma, or a person who is severely brain-damaged. They can be kept alive with machines--in the case of wizards, magic--but they will never do anything of their own volition again. They will never again enjoy life...taste, smell, sight, touch, will all be lost to them, existing only as casual reminders that they are alive. If taste has no MEANING, if a person does not love nor hate the taste of something, then can it be said that he is truly tasting? And so on with smell, sight, sound, touch, and everything else that makes up the individual people and nature in this world...and so the entire world is lost to them.

-----

To further back up my opinions, let us investigate the meaning of souls.

Ah, the spiritual part of humans. The existence of which is much-debated by non-religious groups, though I think most religions (except Hinduism, I am told) believe in some version of souls. This entity is believed to represent all that is not tangible in life--the things we cannot touch, the things one can only feel, think and desire. The soul is believed to be the life of the person, making the choices for the body, which is merely a vessel. The soul is what differentiates people from animals. Animals have only a basic soul, and operate on instinct. People, with the more complex souls, operate on choice.

Now, the soul is immortal. The soul is what travels on to the afterlife, for those who believe that it exists. And most people who believe in souls believe in some form of afterlife... So for a soul to be trapped forever in the nothingness that is a dementor's insides...I cannot tell whether or not it is worse than hell, because I don't know. But there can be return from hell. There can be reincarnation or repentance. A dementor's insides however, are forever. There is no return. Not even a speculation at a return. The soul is just...gone.

I am not sure if Dementors supposedly kill souls when they suck them in...I believe they keep them inside, feeding off the life in them until only a spark is left, not enough to feed the Dementor, but yet enough to remain alive. The soul is alive and in pain forever, with no chance of escape. Remember, SOULS FEEL. Souls are the embodiment of feeling. Yes, they can be in pain. When you are in pain, it is your SOUL which is feeling the pain. Your brain is telling your nerves to tell your soul to feel the pain.

-----

And so what to do with a person whose soul has been removed? They are as good as dead, and may as well be killed. Yet, the body once housed the soul. How can one be casual about killing that which once housed something so infinitely unique?

Better to kill the person completely, sending the soul on to the afterlife and the retributions it will face there, or keep the person alive for their natural lifespan, suffering with their guilt or madness. But do away with the Dementors. Lock them up and throw away the key!

Aya Kamiki studies well the last answer given by a Hufflepuff person, the first thing she noticed in her textbook was "Their bodies are empty shells, and can never be restored...so what is the purpose of keeping them alive?" , this was the Hufflepuff question, Aya Kamiki was prepared to give her opinion about the first thing written in the textbook:

- About the first thing I noticed was about the souls being empty shells, first of all, and since everyone here seems to agree that a person without soul feels nothing, I think that the best that could happen is if the "Dementor's Kiss" would disappear forever, but I guess that it is difficult to happen, isn't it? Probably impossible I think, so I agree about preferring death instead of being useless to the planet, still I agree as well that it is painful to kill someone even if that person has no soul.

The second thing Aya Kamiki wrote in her textbook she also agreed as well, when the Hufflepuff girl said that it is better to suffer psychologically than suffer in body or inside it, so she gave her opinion...again.

- I also know, as everybody knows that it is too painful to suffer physically...obviously more than phsychologically, so I also agree with that part, but I say more, if there is a person who deserves suffering in this world, that person is called "Demon" or "Devil" as you prefer (that is, if someone believes in him), because he's the one who brought pain to this planet, so he's the responsible for every pain, but of course, only if he exists and if what humans say about him it's true.

The third sentence that Aya Kamiki wrote in her textbook was "the choice between death and jail forever is a hard one", another one in which she totally agreed but she didn't agreed 100%, and she could explain why after all.

- It only is hard because choosing between jail and death can mean the same thing, if for example you get jailed forever, it means you are going to die there instead of having the opportunity to see your family and friends, so that's the reason why death and jail can sometimes mean the same thing, however you should know that sometimes you can get jail for just 3 years or 10 years, so if you are still younger and get jailed for those years, after those years have passed you can always come back to your life. Unfortunatelly there is no Justice in this world in my opinion, only the opposite exists, proof of that is that millions of people who get jailed, are jailed without any kind of justice.

On the following sentence she wrote in the textbook she wrote everything, because everything was important to her, so she wrote everything that was written on the next sentence...after that, one more opinion she gave.

- So reaching to a conclusion if a person is no controlling herself/himself, like it happens with the Dementor's Kiss, it means that the body controls itself and goes to the place it wants even if the person doesn't want to go there right? So it means the person can go to dangerous places like, an abysm, a tornado or even near a snake?? That would be terrible indeed, not only life would have no meaning like you would have no protection, since you would go to places you don't want if you have no soul.

Finally the 3 last sentences made Aya Kamiki wonder even more, she had more and more questions in her mind to do, and of course if she had no soul she would never do those questions probably, and since she believes in afterlife and in souls it was easier to give the last questions and opinions.

- So if a soul is immortal this means that we are in a cicle of life that never ends, I know it can be stupid to some people, but I really believe that when you die, some years after you control another person and so on. So if a Dementor's Kissed is performed you would have your soul sucked and you would have your life ended forever after your body dies, right? Still I don't know why are the Dementor's so interested in taking feelings and happiness out of a person.


She finished and waited for more people to answer.
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PostSubject: Re: Dementor's Kiss - "Justice or Murder?" Discussion   Tue Dec 18 2007, 19:17

I am finding it really hard to read what you wrote, because you keep switching between third and first person, and it's confusing, at least to me. Maybe you could just stick to one?

Anyway, to answer your questions:

You misunderstood what I meant about pain. I would choose psychological torture over bodily torture not because it hurts less (because merlin knows psychological torture can hurt more and have much deeper, longer-lasting effects than bodily torture) but because to me it seems less barbarian. Though I suppose torture in any form is barbarian...

Quote :
however you should know that sometimes you can get jail for just 3 years or 10 years

When I wrote 'jail forever', I meant a life sentence. This was bugging me while I was away from the computer, because I just KNEW that it wasn't clear enough.

Quote :
So reaching to a conclusion if a person is no controlling herself/himself, like it happens with the Dementor's Kiss, it means that the body controls itself and goes to the place it wants even if the person doesn't want to go there right? So it means the person can go to dangerous places like, an abysm, a tornado or even near a snake?? That would be terrible indeed, not only life would have no meaning like you would have no protection, since you would go to places you don't want if you have no soul.

Interesting question, but no. I explained this in my post. The person whose soul has been sucked out is like a vegetable:
Quote :
Persistent Vegetative State--As opposed to brain death, PVS is not recognized as death in any legal system. Most PVS patients are unresponsive to external stimuli and their conditions are associated with different levels of consciousness. Some level of consciousness means a person can still respond, in varying degrees, to stimulation. (Emmett, 1989).

PVS patients' eyes might be in a relatively fixed position, or track moving objects, or move in a disconjugate (i.e. completely unsynchronised) manner. They may experience sleep-wake cycles, or be in a state of chronic wakefulness. They may exhibit some behaviors that can be construed as arising from partial consciousness, such as grinding their teeth, swallowing, smiling, shedding tears, grunting, moaning, or screaming without any apparent external stimulus.

Individuals in PVS are seldom on any life-sustaining equipment other than a feeding tube because the brainstem, the center of vegetative functions (such as heart rate and rhythm, respiration, gastrointestinal activity), is relatively intact (Emmett, 1989).

Do you see what I mean? Their reflexes are still working, but that's about it. This is the closest Muggle equivalent I can find that compares to the state of a person post-Dementor's kiss.

To me it seems to be more of a bother to have the Dementor's kiss performed on someone...the authorities would then need to watch over the body in a hospital for years, making sure it didn't get dehydrated, starve of hunger, etc.

Source: Wikipedia.org
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PostSubject: Re: Dementor's Kiss - "Justice or Murder?" Discussion   Wed Dec 19 2007, 03:05

OFF TOPIC: I only switch between to first person when I talk in the classroom, so that's not too difficult, in my opinion.

Quote :
You misunderstood what I meant about pain. I would choose psychological torture over bodily torture not because it hurts less (because merlin knows psychological torture can hurt more and have much deeper, longer-lasting effects than bodily torture) but because to me it seems less barbarian. Though I suppose torture in any form is barbarian...

- Yeah, but again I'm just giving my opinion, It's not that I didn't understood what you said, besides I really believe you have a different point of view from mine, but for me it is clear that I (not you) would choose psychological suffering exactly because it hurts less, I know that you think different, but I think this way.

Quote :
When I wrote 'jail forever', I meant a life sentence. This was bugging me while I was away from the computer, because I just KNEW that it wasn't clear enough.

- Okay, but still I think I have the oppinion I gave before, you might think I misunderstood you again but still the oppinion is the same, so it's almost the same as not misunderstooding, jail forever to me means nothing more than staying there for all your life, and of course that seems to be the same thing than death because you are going to die in jail if you stay there for your whole life.

Quote :
Interesting question, but no. I explained this in my post. The person whose soul has been sucked out is like a vegetable

- About this one, OK I admit I misunderstood because my mind changes in this, so this means a person who was doomed by a "Dementor's Kiss" spell doesn't even move? Well, that's like wishing your enemy to become a plant himself/herself, and that is truly not a good wish at all.

Quote :
Do you see what I mean? Their reflexes are still working, but that's about it. This is the closest Muggle equivalent I can find that compares to the state of a person post-Dementor's kiss.

To me it seems to be more of a bother to have the Dementor's kiss performed on someone...the authorities would then need to watch over the body in a hospital for years, making sure it didn't get dehydrated, starve of hunger, etc.

- Well, that surelly is a big responsibility I have to say, and to watch a body in a hospital for years probably would make the people who work there get tired, unless they always switch to another people for some time, for this and for many other reasons (some of them stupid) I would hate to work in a hospital...simply because we see many things we don't want to see there.


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PostSubject: Re: Dementor's Kiss - "Justice or Murder?" Discussion   Wed Dec 19 2007, 10:08

(Oh I get it...I'll just skip over every paragraph without a dash in front of it. grin)

Hppamela wrote
Quote :
All in all, I think that the use of the Dementor's Kiss is just another form of evil. When we utilize something that cruel as a punishment, aren't we just as evil as the people we seek to punish?

Exactly. I agree with this completely. Dementors are dark, DEMENTED creatures. In case their name didn't give you a clue, I've just as good as spelled it out for you. They were never intended to get along with humans, in fact, they are the complete opposite of what humans aspire to be. Even Voldemort would never want to be stuck as a Dementor, because Voldemort likes to be in control. Dementors are controlled by their hunger for human souls. They are like people without souls, except they are AWARE that they're missing souls. I can't imagine the torture of that. They can't ever die, and for eternity they are starving for something they can only taste, and never truly possess.

Stephy wrote:
Quote :
Even people like Voldemort shouldnt even have this done to him. Im sure that he would of had rather had this done instead of dying... There were many things in his past that lead him the the future he had. If you were to get to know him maybe then someone could of stoped him. Also if someone was able to recongnize at an early stage what he was to become then someone could of had stepped in and stopped him.

Okay. I don't believe Voldemort would prefer this done to him. Does nobody understand how completely USELESS a body is without a soul? Do you remember how weak Voldemort was after the Avada Kedavra on Harry Potter backfired? And that was because he had nearly died. Instead of losing his soul to death, it split once again and so he remained alive. But barely.

Voldemort was crazy enough about his one goal--to be immortal--that he was ready to undergo the torture of splitting his soul. But that was because he WANTED TO LIVE. Please see what I've written in my previous posts about PVS. This is truly how I believe a person would be like after a Dementor sucks out their soul. An empty shell of who they once were. Everything that was the essence of who they were is gone.

Oh and by the way, Voldemort couldn't be saved. Does Dumbledore showing up at the orphanage ring a bell? Dumbledore tried saving him. He did everything he could, and the great man failed. I don't think there was any help that could be given to Voldemort. He was born with evil inclinations, inherited from his lovely mother's side of the family. Now, if he were raised with love and a firm hand, he might have learned to control his evil tendencies. However, he was denied a mother's care, and so the evil in him frolicked about until it had grown too strong for anyone to help him past it.

katie wrote:
Quote :
I don't think that people suffer when they get the kiss, howeverI think that its a way to get out of the guilt that hopefully surrounds you when you kill someone. It's like a way to escape the mortal agony that killing someone brings.

hppamela wrote:
Quote :
However, once that initial torture is over, you're left with an easy way out of feeling any pain. Therefore, I think it's a highly ineffective punishment, in the long run.

You don't think they suffer?! Obviously you've never thought into exactly what a person would be like when left stranded without a soul. Do you know that even ANIMALS have souls? Very basic ones, but still!

True, you get out of the guilty feeling you might get when you kill someone. I say 'might' because so many murderers are insane and their normal feelings are squashed. But anyway, being without a soul is not smooth bliss! Being without a soul is NOTHING. You are NO ONE without your soul. FOREVER. And if they were even slightly aware...if they were even one particle aware of themselves without their souls...the knowledge itself would kill them. But they could never be aware. That luxury has been taken away.

Initial torture?! What initial torture? Oh yeah, the pain and indignity and hopelessness of having your soul sucked out through your mouth. But what happens afterward, hmm? They don't feel any pain, but they feel nothing else either. When they die, their souls won't go on to the afterlife. Their souls are LOST forever. That is why it is worse than being dead! Because when a person dies, their soul is free to go on, no longer shackled to this world in a human body. But if they don't have a soul...their body just wastes away, and they might as well be dead.

Highly ineffective, because they feel no pain, huh? I would LOVE to hear your opinion on 'effective punishment.' It seems to me you are suggesting torture...and I have always been of the opinion that people who would torture others for whatever reason have either shut off their emotions, or they have severe psychological problems.

How to deal with an insane serial murderer? Lock him up in jail for life? That is an effective punishment? That's not punishing him, that's just shoving him away somewhere where we can all forget about him until he dies.

Though I have my doubts about the effectiveness, I agree that a life sentence in prison is the most humane thing to do. And if we don't stick to our morals, what differentiates us from them? Not much. Even death by injection is too strong a punishment in my opinion, because who are WE to decide who lives and who dies? That's drawing a very fine line between murder and justice.
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PostSubject: Re: Dementor's Kiss - "Justice or Murder?" Discussion   Wed Dec 19 2007, 10:17

When I say an effective punishment, I mean life in prison without using dementors. As you so rightly said yourself, they should never have been near humans.

As far as when I say that after the initial torture, they don't have to deal with guilt...well, don't you kind of say the same thing yourself? They aren't aware, so how can they be aware that they don't feel anything. How can they possibly suffer if they're not aware?

Admittedly, the way I phrased that one sentence could seem to imply that I'm all for any kind of torture, just as long as it doesn't end quickly and easily. However, that was not my intended meaning, at all. I just want to clear it up that I think all forms of torture are sick and wrong. I think that we have to have come far enough that we don't even think on these things. I pray that we have.
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PostSubject: Re: Dementor's Kiss - "Justice or Murder?" Discussion   Wed Dec 19 2007, 10:30

Hppamela wrote:
Quote :
They aren't aware, so how can they be aware that they don't feel anything. How can they possibly suffer if they're not aware?

Well, that would be a matter of opinion. There is no way of knowing for sure, obviously. Do you think that people in a permanent vegetative state suffer? Sometimes they randomly move about and scream or grimace for no reason whatsoever...

Look, you know how when someone loses a limb, there is something called feeling your phantom limb:
Quote :
Phantom limb is the sensation that an amputated or missing limb is still attached to the body and is moving appropriately with other body parts (Mitchell 1871; Melzack 1992; Ramachandran & Hirstein 1998). Approximately 50 to 80% of amputees experience these phantom sensations in their amputated limb, and the majority of these people report that the sensations are painful (Sherman, Sherman & Parker 1984)...The missing limb often feels shorter and may feel as if it is in a distorted and painful position.

Who's to say that the body doesn't go through similar symptoms, but greatly multiplied, after the loss of a soul? They are not aware WHAT they are missing, or in fact THAT they are missing something, but still their body instinctively cries out for their phantom soul. The instincts are still intact...and for all we know, it could be an instinct to miss your soul.

They would be in the ULTIMATE pain. They would be hurting without knowing why it hurt or if it would ever stop. They would be in pain without wondering about it, without cure...forever.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantom_limb
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PostSubject: Re: Dementor's Kiss - "Justice or Murder?" Discussion   Wed Dec 19 2007, 10:40

I had never thought of comparing it to the phantom limb situation. I am familiar with that. I suppose we'll never really know. Regardless of whether or not they suffer, it's still an inhumane punishment. Even if there is no pain, no awareness, or anything like that, there is still the initial suffering. That is enough to make it wrong.

Another thing I had never thought of is what happens to the soul. If the soul does never die within the dementor's body--and I think that's fairly likely--then it would be equivelent to sending that person to hell. I refuse to accept that we even have that right. If all of that is the case, then there is no way I could ever believe that the dementor's kiss is acceptable again (as I said earlier, I was once all for it).
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PostSubject: Re: Dementor's Kiss - "Justice or Murder?" Discussion   Wed Dec 19 2007, 10:50

Sure it would be hell, and a pretty bad one at that, as the Dementor slowly feeds off everything that is important to the soul...until only the bare essence is left. I think all the leftover bits of soul is what keeps Dementors alive forever and makes them immortal. However, it makes them all the more hungry for more souls...and more souls...and more souls...
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PostSubject: Re: Dementor's Kiss - "Justice or Murder?" Discussion   Thu Dec 20 2007, 10:20

Quote :
Exactly. I agree with this completely. Dementors are dark, DEMENTED creatures. In case their name didn't give you a clue, I've just as good as spelled it out for you. They were never intended to get along with humans, in fact, they are the complete opposite of what humans aspire to be. Even Voldemort would never want to be stuck as a Dementor, because Voldemort likes to be in control. Dementors are controlled by their hunger for human souls. They are like people without souls, except they are AWARE that they're missing souls. I can't imagine the torture of that. They can't ever die, and for eternity they are starving for something they can only taste, and never truly possess.

-So this means it's not actually the Dementors fault that they're feeding persons, is it? It's their hunger's fault, but it's not their fault that they're hungry, all this in my opinion of course.

Quote :
Okay. I don't believe Voldemort would prefer this done to him. Does nobody understand how completely USELESS a body is without a soul? Do you remember how weak Voldemort was after the Avada Kedavra on Harry Potter backfired? And that was because he had nearly died. Instead of losing his soul to death, it split once again and so he remained alive. But barely.

- Well, one of the two choices is right, or you are either really REALLY smart to know these thing, or it's us who are just noobies and didn't paid as much attention to those things as you did, but well at least I try to study what you say during class, even tough I might not understand everything.

Quote :
Oh and by the way, Voldemort couldn't be saved. Does Dumbledore showing up at the orphanage ring a bell? Dumbledore tried saving him. He did everything he could, and the great man failed. I don't think there was any help that could be given to Voldemort. He was born with evil inclinations, inherited from his lovely mother's side of the family. Now, if he were raised with love and a firm hand, he might have learned to control his evil tendencies. However, he was denied a mother's care, and so the evil in him frolicked about until it had grown too strong for anyone to help him past it.

- Aww, too pity that Voldemort didn't went to the good side, well if Dumbledore tries his best, then we gotta give credit enough to him. About Voldemort I've finally changed my mind on one thing about him after you tell me that he could be to the good side if he controlled himself, for all these years I always wished that Voldemort died forever because of all the pain he caused to many people, now I dont wish that anymore especially because I know he could be on the good side if he controlled himself.

Quote :
Initial torture?! What initial torture? Oh yeah, the pain and indignity and hopelessness of having your soul sucked out through your mouth. But what happens afterward, hmm? They don't feel any pain, but they feel nothing else either. When they die, their souls won't go on to the afterlife. Their souls are LOST forever. That is why it is worse than being dead! Because when a person dies, their soul is free to go on, no longer shackled to this world in a human body. But if they don't have a soul...their body just wastes away, and they might as well be dead.

- I get it, so what you mean is that having no soul means what I told sooner...having no more life in the future, because your soul is lost.

Quote :
Admittedly, the way I phrased that one sentence could seem to imply that I'm all for any kind of torture, just as long as it doesn't end quickly and easily. However, that was not my intended meaning, at all. I just want to clear it up that I think all forms of torture are sick and wrong. I think that we have to have come far enough that we don't even think on these things. I pray that we have.

- Hey Pamela, I totally agree with that, if not everyone agrees, then I hope at least those people respect what we think, right? I am also against any kind of torture and suffering, the last thing I wanted to do in life is to make someone to suffer or losing soul which I have absolutelly no interest in doing that fortunatelly.

Quote :
I had never thought of comparing it to the phantom limb situation. I am familiar with that. I suppose we'll never really know. Regardless of whether or not they suffer, it's still an inhumane punishment. Even if there is no pain, no awareness, or anything like that, there is still the initial suffering. That is enough to make it wrong.

- Hmm, yes indeed making someone suffer is already 99,9% way to make a crime (well it also depends of the suffering of course, if it is a heart breaking suffering unfortunatelly it isnt considered as a crime, but in my opinion, all suffering should be considered as crime, no offence to those who don't agree, but that's simply what I think).


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PostSubject: Re: Dementor's Kiss - "Justice or Murder?" Discussion   Thu Dec 20 2007, 18:54

It depends. I mean is it fair that there's this person who makes many people suffer and he kills and everything. Wouldn't it be fair to give that person the Dementor's Kiss? I think it is. It's true we don't have the right to make anyone suffer but what about when that person made other people suffer, is that fair? Absolutely Not. So I think in those cases it would be fair to give this person the Dementor's Kiss.

But what about the innocent people? Like Harry & Sirius in Prisoner of Azkaban. At the scene in the lake where they almost take Sirius' soul. What did they do to deserve it? Nothing. It's true Harry fought them and saved himself & Sirius but what if Harry would have failed? They would have died. A very unfair death I believe. Imagine Sirius, a man who was in Azkaban for something he didn't do, he commited no crime and he certainly didn't deserve to die. And Harry after all the suffering he has gone through didn't deserve death either. So I believe it's totally unfair in those cases.

And what about Order of the Phoenix..the attack on Harry and Dudley. They even do it to muggles. It's true Dudley isn't the world's biggest saint, but he isn't vile and cruel either. So in my opinion he didn't deserve it if the Dementor's would have given him the Kiss. And Harry had to suffer an attack all over again. Thank godness he was prepared.

So, when should it be fair? We don't have the right to make anybody suffer. But I believe it would be fair to those people who live life making other people suffer. Like Voldemort and his Death Eathers. Because nothing gives them the right to kill people and haunt them. When should it be unfair? When innocent people must pay the consequences. Put it this way, if you haven't made anyone suffer you don't deserve it. But if you have made many many people suffer you kind of do.
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PostSubject: Re: Dementor's Kiss - "Justice or Murder?" Discussion   Sat Dec 22 2007, 07:59

PrincessPotter wrote:
It depends. I mean is it fair that there's this person who makes many people suffer and he kills and everything. Wouldn't it be fair to give that person the Dementor's Kiss? I think it is. It's true we don't have the right to make anyone suffer but what about when that person made other people suffer, is that fair? Absolutely Not. So I think in those cases it would be fair to give this person the Dementor's Kiss.

But what about the innocent people? Like Harry & Sirius in Prisoner of Azkaban. At the scene in the lake where they almost take Sirius' soul. What did they do to deserve it? Nothing. It's true Harry fought them and saved himself & Sirius but what if Harry would have failed? They would have died. A very unfair death I believe. Imagine Sirius, a man who was in Azkaban for something he didn't do, he commited no crime and he certainly didn't deserve to die. And Harry after all the suffering he has gone through didn't deserve death either. So I believe it's totally unfair in those cases.

And what about Order of the Phoenix..the attack on Harry and Dudley. They even do it to muggles. It's true Dudley isn't the world's biggest saint, but he isn't vile and cruel either. So in my opinion he didn't deserve it if the Dementor's would have given him the Kiss. And Harry had to suffer an attack all over again. Thank godness he was prepared.

So, when should it be fair? We don't have the right to make anybody suffer. But I believe it would be fair to those people who live life making other people suffer. Like Voldemort and his Death Eathers. Because nothing gives them the right to kill people and haunt them. When should it be unfair? When innocent people must pay the consequences. Put it this way, if you haven't made anyone suffer you don't deserve it. But if you have made many many people suffer you kind of do.

Well, you're absolutelly right I have to say , making people suffer, for any of the worst or any other circumstances should be totally forbidden unless someone really really but REALLY deserved it (like a person who killed many with inttention for example), I can apply this to George W. Bush (no offence to the americans, I have nothing against them neither the intenttion of offend them) if it's really true that he killed many people in Iraq, otherwise...if it's nothing but a lie, then Bush doesn't deserve suffering or even death.
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PostSubject: Re: Dementor's Kiss - "Justice or Murder?" Discussion   Sat Dec 22 2007, 08:18

I think the first question we must ask ourselves before making this descision is wheather or not we feel the kiss is death. After deciding if losing your soul is equivilant to death, you must then ask yourself if you agree with a Death Penalty. Because, the Kiss, in my opinion, is essentially a death penalty. Taking someones life i feel is wrong.
Okay, so its the equivilent punishment, kinda like and eye of an eye, ear for an ear. But murder, in any situation is wrong. Even when the person you are murdering has killed someone else. This is a punishment that should never be used.
You guys have said many things that I can counter. That is my reason for sitting back quietly. well, here:
KatieBellaTrix wrote:
I don't think that people suffer when they get the kiss, howeverI think that its a way to get out of the guilt that hopefully surrounds you when you kill someone. It's like a way to escape the mortal agony that killing someone brings.
So, you think death as a way to get out of your guilt is a good thing? I think that living qwith that guilt your whole life would teach you and others a better lesson than being able to let go of it with a simple kiss. Guilt, one of the most powrful and painful emotions, would be a good thing. If you say that, you are kinda saying that suicide is a good way to get away from pain. Basically, thats what the Kiss is. Death, suicide, murder.
Hppamela wrote
Hppamela wrote:
All in all, I think that the use of the Dementor's Kiss is just another form of evil. When we utilize something that cruel as a punishment, aren't we just as evil as the people we seek to punish?
Exzactly. We are stooping down to the accused's level when we sentence them to the kiss. And that, my friends, is wrong.
I will be back with more...
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PostSubject: Re: Dementor's Kiss - "Justice or Murder?" Discussion   Sat Dec 22 2007, 12:38

Quote :
Well, you're absolutelly right I have to say , making people suffer, for any of the worst or any other circumstances should be totally forbidden unless someone really really but REALLY deserved it (like a person who killed many with inttention for example), I can apply this to George W. Bush (no offence to the americans, I have nothing against them neither the intenttion of offend them) if it's really true that he killed many people in Iraq, otherwise...if it's nothing but a lie, then Bush doesn't deserve suffering or even death.
- Thanks And so are you. I don't really know whether Bush is bad or evil. And if he really killed all those people then he would deserve it. Of course no offense. But think about all the people he's killed when he throws the attacks. Women, Young girls and boys even babies. People who don't deserve it at all. I mean it's true The Twin Towers got destroyed but it's been 6 years now and Bush has to get over it and think of better ways to solve it. Once is okay, but he has crossed the line. I bet now if they tried to stop it wouldn't work.


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PostSubject: Re: Dementor's Kiss - "Justice or Murder?" Discussion   Sun Dec 23 2007, 00:46

Quote :
...(like a person who killed many with inttention for example), I can apply this to George W. Bush (no offence to the americans, I have nothing against them neither the intenttion of offend them) if it's really true that he killed many people in Iraq, otherwise...if it's nothing but a lie, then Bush doesn't deserve suffering or even death.

Right...it amuses me when people start accusing Bush of being a mass murderer. And I can't help but laugh at how you've got the whole thing backwards.

I mean, you yourself say that you don't know if it's a lie or the truth. So why mention it at all? It does nothing to help along the discussion, you're merely spreading brainwashed paraphernalia, and I don't see the point of mentioning it at all. However, now that it has been mentioned, I'll give my opinion.

The Dementor's kiss is really a last resort sort of thing. If it is ever used, it would be used only for those who are incapable of feeling remorse, who would be killed rather than being sentenced to life in prison. Now perhaps, they want to use a stronger punishment than simple death, then they would use the Dementor's kiss. THIS IS WRONG, in my opinion. I'm just stating when they might have seen fit to administer the Kiss.

I understand that you didn't mean to offend the Americans. Now please understand from my AMERICAN point of view, though I don't always agree with my President's decisions, he is my president and I will stick up for him, especially if he is being accused of something inane. How can you even IMPLY that he is evil for killing people intentionally? What kind of an uninformed comment is that? You think he started the 'war on terror' because he wanted to kill people? You truly believe that was his INTENTION?

You know what really offends me? That someone can make a comment like that without even knowing what they're saying. Without doing any research on it whatsoever. You just accept what someone tells you, and don't ask questions? THAT offends me.

The American nation was attacked. A full-scale, terrorist attack killing over 2,000 people and destroying an American icon. They hit us where it hurt, so to speak, and no, we can't just 'get over it' as Princess Potter so delicately put it.

After these attacks, it became widespread knowledge that in the middle east there were training camps for terrorism. The U.S. started a campaign that would attempt to curb terrorism, and also authorized the use of military force against terrorists. Because as anyone well-informed will tell you, terrorists do NOT sit down for peace talks. You can talk till you're blue in the face, and all the while the terrorist will sit there smirking while his friend is blowing up your neighborhood. Because this is how terrorists operate. This has been proven time and time again in the nation of Israel, by the way. Sure, they keep talking...but they're always ready for war. Because they know from past experience that there's no real rationalizing with terrorists.

I think you must have been heavily brainwashed by the media to even think that Bush deserves something like the Kiss. What about the TERRORISTS? Don't you think THEY deserve the Kiss? Did that thought not even OCCUR to you?! These terrorists do not care about killing hundreds or thousands of innocent civilians. If anyone should get the Kiss, it would be a potential suicide bomber. They obviously have no appreciation for their own lives anyway, and it would hurt the jihad bombers the most.

And I don't know very much about this bit, so someone correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't part of the Jihad belief a struggle of the soul? Obviously losing their souls completely, forever, would be a terrible thing to happen to them.

But still, I'll quote Kathrine: "Exzactly. We are stooping down to the accused's level when we sentence them to the kiss. And that, my friends, is wrong." We don't have to stoop to their level. This is why I don't believe in the Kiss. This is why I believe we should have nothing to do with the Dementors. Because we're better than the terrorists. We don't want to be evil.

But if anyone would deserve the kiss, it would be terrorists who planned to kill innocent people for no reason at all, rather than the leader of a country who made an informed decision, BACKED UP BY HIS COUNTRY, by the way, to go to war; in which civilian casualties, while not planned, are always a risk. The two situations are VERY different.

Please don't talk about something if you have no clue what you're talking about.
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PostSubject: Re: Dementor's Kiss - "Justice or Murder?" Discussion   Sun Dec 23 2007, 14:05

I'm sorry if you got offended. And I totally agree with you. I'm not 100% informed about it since I didn't research about it or anything and I started the topic because I was backing up Aya Kamiki's opinion. And what I meant by getting over it was not simply forget about it because I know it's impossible but try to find better ways to solve it. And the terrorists would deserve the Dementor's Kiss no doubt. Because they were the ones who started it all but President Bush shouldn't have sunk to their level.
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PostSubject: Re: Dementor's Kiss - "Justice or Murder?" Discussion   Sun Dec 23 2007, 14:16

Thanks streams of silver, i was just about to say the same thing. And sorry PrincessPotter, but it still is, and always will be a sensitive subject for us Americans (i think most of us agree). My friends parents were both supposed to be in the Twin Towers that day, for job interviews.
anyway, arent we a bit off topic?
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PostSubject: Re: Dementor's Kiss - "Justice or Murder?" Discussion   Mon Dec 24 2007, 10:18

Yes I totally understand. And once again sorry if my comment was misunderstood. But nothing happened to your family right? Well, I'm glad.
Now that you say it I believe we really are off topic
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PostSubject: Re: Dementor's Kiss - "Justice or Murder?" Discussion   Wed Dec 26 2007, 11:35

(Way to kick arse streams I loved your whole post!)

::Okay on the topic that we are off topic, I'll change topics back to topic. Topic!

Okay so I guess its okay to say that when you get the kiss you still go on living so its not just a simple 'Death Row' punishment you do however lose your soul, which as Streams mentioned is considered a terrible punishment in some countries maybe worse than death. So the Dementors kiss is...wrong...but prehaps a snessisary evil in the wizarding world.

kathrine *huggles* know you're loved. Cuz we all love our Kathrineee!
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PostSubject: Re: Dementor's Kiss - "Justice or Murder?" Discussion   Fri Dec 28 2007, 10:42

Like I said before, Guilt, and living with that guilt is, in my opinion, a much worse punnishment. Guilt wil drive you insane, and fill you with an unstoppable pain, not physical, butyou know what I mean.

And yeah, guys their okay. They missed it, cause they got stuck on a syubway...
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PostSubject: Re: Dementor's Kiss - "Justice or Murder?" Discussion   Mon Dec 31 2007, 12:48

Slytherin for the cup

The Dementors Kiss is obviously justice. Because essentically when you kill someone, you are taking their soul away from them. So an eye for an eye, right? After all, if the one you loved was murdered by some big bad horrible death eater, would you not wish the same upon them? I know we all wish that we could simply go around and once someone was killed let the other person just live in jail and believe that it was justice. That they'd get what was coming to them some day, but come on this is the real world. The good guy doesn't always win, and you're seriously willing to take the chance and just let faith decide whether or not they should have any real punishment come to them? The dementors kiss is the justice that needs to happen. You all sit around here saying it's murder, but by definition murder is:
American Heritage Dictionary wrote:
The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.
Which brings up several points.

The demenors kiss is clearly lawful. As it is done with the concent of the Ministry. So by definition that is one reason why it can't be considered murder. Then it clearly states killing of one human by another the dementor isn't even human. So it can't fit the definition again, and you aren't killing the person. You are taking their soul. For them to be dead, they have to be no longer breathing. So once again it doesn't even fit the definition of murder. One final note about how it doesn't even fit the definition of murder. Esspeically with premeditated malice there isn't any malice in it. The dementors don't have any malice, they don't have the desire to see them suffer. They do what they do as creatures, you can't change how it was made. Nor is any of it premediated. The dementors don't pick a person and just kiss them specificlly because they want to see them suffer.

Now some of you are probably looking at me like, but it can't be justice. It's wrong, it's hypocritcal, and all that jazz. But it isn't. One definition of Justice supports my point extremely well:
Dictionary.com wrote:
the administering of deserved punishment or reward.
. Isn't the deserved puinshment for taking someone's life, taking something of yours too? If all punishments weren't severe, what would make someone question their actions if they weren't going to get into some severe trouble for them?

Also Katherine, I've got to comment on what you said, about the guilt getting them sometime. Do you really think that's the case? That everyone has a conscience? If they did then we wouldn't have serial killers would we? I think truely that if everyone had a sense of right and wrong, of what was good and what was evil. Then we wouldn't even have to use the kiss. We wouldn't be having this disscussion. There are some pretty sick people out in the world, ones who enjoy to watch other people suffer. And to allow them to just live on without a punishment that isn't as severe as the very thing that they did to someone else... it's a mistake on our part. To let someone like that get away, a stay in the wizard prison won't straighten them out. They deserve exactly what the Dementors kiss gives to them. To say that they don't... well that's not right to me.

The types of people who commit the crimes need something big to make them think twice about it. Maybe knowing that they'd loose their soul for taking someone else's is just the thing that stops quite a few people from committing murders. Personally I'd rather not take away the kiss and find out what would happen.

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PostSubject: Re: Dementor's Kiss - "Justice or Murder?" Discussion   Thu Jan 03 2008, 16:49

Well, in response to the topis of the Dementor's Kiss being Justice or Murder, my opinion to this topic would have to be that to suffer the fate of the Dementor's Kiss would be far worse than suffering death itself. It would be a victim's worst fear.
But, on the other hand, when it comes to dangerous murderers, the De,emtor's Kiss would be justice. Only if they can be proven guilty.[/u]
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PostSubject: Re: Dementor's Kiss - "Justice or Murder?" Discussion   Sat Jan 19 2008, 04:22

I believe that the dementors kiss is neither justice or murder.


If Bob kills Frank in cold blood, Bob deserves to die. But if you kill Bob (by ordering a dementor to kiss him) are you really better than him? You have also taken another life knowing perfectly well what you were doing. "He was punished because of what he did" is a lie. "Bob killed Frank so we killed Bob" is alot more accurate. So therefore, if your law states "anyone who murders another person shall be subject to the dementors kiss" then if you let the dementors kiss (and therefor kill) Bob, YOU have just murdered Bob so if you follow your own laws you must subjected to the kiss also.

But you could also argue that the dementor did not actually take his life, just his soul so you have committed no wrong.

But if you take some ones soul they will never learn what they did was wrong.
Right untill the end they will continue thinking that they were not evil, but powerful. Kissed because they were too powerful. Whereas if they remain alive and locked up, there is a chance that they may finally see the wrong in what they did and feel remorse. Doesnt everybody deserve a second chance? And who are you to take that chance away from them?

The above would work wonderfully if not for the minor drawback of the possibility of escape. Also they could be like Bellatrix Lestrange and see prison as some kind of reward so when they are free they will be honered. Shouldn't the kiss be used on crazy people like this?





What it all comes down to is this:

Could you live with yourself knowing that you are responsible for someone parent, someones child, someones sibbling or someones friend DYING??? Nomatter how evil?????



And could you live with yourself if you found out they were innocent?????


















NB: Firstly I would like to appologize to any Bobs or Franks out there, no offence intended. And secondly I do know it's a bit strange for me to be arguing with my self but I do it all the time so don't worry...
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PostSubject: Re: Dementor's Kiss - "Justice or Murder?" Discussion   Tue Jan 22 2008, 20:09

I think the dementor's kiss is only murder if the person is no proven guilty. Like when Barty Crouch Jr. was given the kiss he deserved it really. He was proven guilty by the Wizardingot and he had harry as proof to an atempted murder. Now on some muggle or let's say.......with Umbridge and the Muggle-bord regerstration thing that is cold muder and wrong. If the person is found not guilty of crimes then the kiss shan't be used. That is what I say
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PostSubject: Re: Dementor's Kiss - "Justice or Murder?" Discussion   Thu Jan 24 2008, 19:25

this is tough. the dementor's kiss is justice if the person was proven guilty for their convicted crime. but if the dementors run (or glide) rampid and attack an innocent person it could be concidered murder.

but would you even call it murder? while the removing of a persons soul is painful does it really kill that person? in my opinion it is murder but techniqually is it i don't know.

all in all it comes down to whether or not a person is convicted of a crime worthy of death or not- that is the only way to determine if it is justice or murder.
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PostSubject: Re: Dementor's Kiss - "Justice or Murder?" Discussion   Fri Feb 01 2008, 17:30

I'll just jump in with my opinon....

The Dementor's Kiss is like the death penalty. It's irreversible and reserved for the worst criminals--as well it should be. However, the Kiss is worse than death because the victim is still alive. Alive, but with no chance at life. The victim can't think, dream, laugh, cry, or even tell us how awful it is. It's a living death. The victim is still alive--sort of--which means he/she is still subject to the laws of this world. In other words, the victim can still die. So the Dementor's kiss actually subjects the victim to dying twice.

I'm not a huge supporter of the death penalty, except in extreme cases. Since the Dementor's Kiss is worse than death, it should be banned. The only peope I can think of who deserve the Kiss are Voldemort and Bellatrix Lestrange. Ironically, they're both dead.
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PostSubject: Re: Dementor's Kiss - "Justice or Murder?" Discussion   Sat Feb 02 2008, 15:03

I think that the Dementor's Kiss is Justice as long as the person is proven guilty. Similar to the Muggle's death penalty, it should only be reserved for those who have done an unforgivable crime such as torture or death (pretty much the Unforgivable Curses). I do believe that giving someone the Dementor's Kiss without first proving them guilty would be a terrible mistake. What if the had the wrong person?

So, just like any other government, some ways of justice may seem unfair but, compare the crime, and the Dementor's Kiss. If the crime is bad enough to deserve it and they are proved guilty, then the Kiss should be performed. Every system has it's flaws though so not all problems will be solved, such as always having 100% accuracy for who is guilty or not.
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PostSubject: Re: Dementor's Kiss - "Justice or Murder?" Discussion   Sat Feb 02 2008, 21:35

The problem is, who really has the right to determine whether or not it is deserved? There is too significant a lack of consensus in regards to the morality of the Kiss (as with death penalty) to say that the general public should agree on the justification of the Kiss. I don't see how any one person or group could possibly have the right to take on a God role to decide what crime deserves such a punishment.

Aside from that, I am still quite bothered by the permanence of the punishment. The purpose of disciplining an individual is to teach them some sort of lesson. Think back to the last time you were grounded. Why did it happen? Did you make the same mistake again, or at least think twice before doing so? If we permanently end all chance of repentance, how can an individual ever better him or herself? Isn't the bettering of oneself one of the most important things in life?

Another thing to take into consideration is the possibility of the existence of heaven and hell. Imagine if a soul is eaten by a dementor. What happens after death? As one who believes in an afterlife, I can not accept the justification of a punishment that makes death the end of everything. It would just throw things too far out of balance.
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PostSubject: Re: Dementor's Kiss - "Justice or Murder?" Discussion   Sun Feb 03 2008, 06:55

Pamela, you are quite right and I believe have almost changed my opinion. But just a question, do you not like the death penalty for Muggles either then (the Electic Chair)?

This will help me with what I have to say!
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PostSubject: Re: Dementor's Kiss - "Justice or Murder?" Discussion   Tue Feb 05 2008, 12:07

At the risk of posting something slightly off-topic, I feel pretty much the same way about the death penalty as I do the Kiss. I also think that one of the motivating factors for people to cry for the death penalty is not justice, but revenge. While a part of me can understand this desire, I have a hard time accepting revenge as a punishment. I feel mostly the same about the Kiss.

I do want to state that I don't view the Kiss as murder, but I do view it as unjust. I just wanted to clarify that, as some have rebutted this side of the discussion by saying that it doesn't fit the definition of murder. That's something that I'm quite aware of.
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PostSubject: Re: Dementor's Kiss - "Justice or Murder?" Discussion   Wed Feb 06 2008, 14:48

I do belive that what Pamela has been saying has changed my opinion on the Dementor's Kiss. She's right. Who's to say who can play God and decide what's bad enough to get this treatment?
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PostSubject: Re: Dementor's Kiss - "Justice or Murder?" Discussion   Fri Feb 15 2008, 16:32

This Discussion is now closed. Here are your marks:

Gryffindor (Extra 10 points for most participants)

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KatieBellaTrix - 15
Aya Kamiki - 100 (Most Creative)
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ginnyunited - 10

Ravenclaw

polly - 10
stephy - 15
PrincessPotter - 20
Alice Cullen - 10
Constica18 - 5

Hufflepuff

dragonweaver - 10
Vulcan/Blackjack - 10
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Dancingsunset - 10

Slytherin

kathrineee_anne - 20
Malfoy - 5
Bella - 5

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